Talking Public Art
Talking Public Art
Chris Dixon discusses how building networks and relationships can create the conditions for public art to happen
This week we talk to Chris Dixon, Arts and Cultural Industries Manager at Ashford Borough Council.
About: surviving (or not surviving) in the arts; building networks and relationships, creative hooks and creating the conditions for public art to happen; and the need for vibrancy, fun and innovation.
Plus: ‘Network Rail grey’, fibre glass dogs and public art in football stadiums.
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Talking
SPEAKER_01:Public Art
SPEAKER_02:with us, Louise and Laura from
SPEAKER_01:Francis Knight Public Art Consultancy. conversations with a range of arts practitioners, community activists, planning directors and design teams about how we can make places better by working with artists.
SPEAKER_02:Our role as public art consultants is all about the delicate balance of client expectations to encourage new ways of seeing, developing relationships, connecting people and enabling the creative process. Today we meet Chris Dixon. Chris grew up in the 80s on the Fleet Estate in Dartford. After failing his 11 plus and leaving secondary school at 16, he went to the Miskin Theatre in Dartford College to study performing arts, the only subject he'd ever enjoyed. Later, he attended the highly regarded Poor School Drama College in London, set up in response to the need for first class acting training for those on limited resources.
SPEAKER_01:After graduating, he worked in stage and screen roles, as well as on factory Welcome, Chris, to Talking Public Arts Series 3. Thank you. So Louise and I were going through a timeline to work out when we first knew you. Oh, right, yeah. Yeah, because we understand you've been 19 years this year at Asheville Borough Council.
SPEAKER_03:That's correct,
SPEAKER_01:yeah. That's a milestone, isn't it? That's a long time. So I was just trying to work out how we met you. I think, oh, I don't know. We're still not quite sure, but we feel like we've known you for a long, long time, Chris, which is
SPEAKER_03:lovely. Yeah, that's right. Yeah,
SPEAKER_01:absolutely. Really interested to know something about your past, how you've got to where you are, how you're now working at Ashford Borough Council, really.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, it wasn't an intentional pathway to work for Ashford Borough Council. I studied drama. I went to Dartford College and that's what I was really keen on. I was pretty terrible at school, but drama was something that really sort of captured my imagination. I went to youth theatres and things like that. So I went to Dartford College, which had a fantastic podcast. performing arts course which was called the miskin theater um and basically um these things don't run anymore but but basically you just had to run the theater and that was your job uh which was absolutely fantastic it was less uh formal or sort of academic it was uh if you have to be there at three in the morning painting the set or doing the you know plotting the lights or or or um getting through scenes you just had to be there it was a fantastic sort of education um i then went on to drama school uh in London, which was okay. And then I went to work as an actor for two to three years. And I found it quite hard to sustain my career as an actor. It's very, very difficult, really competitive. You know, I was in some fantastic things, but... What were you in? What were you
SPEAKER_04:in?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, God, well, I just... Say, for example, you know, you go to the Edinburgh Festival and you're in a fantastic show there and, you know, get some... transferred back to London but when you get back to London you have to sell your car because you just cannot make it work you know and you know I was working in construction on Blue Water inducting all the workers down onto site and that was like from four in the morning to around about midday and then you go to sleep have a bit of food go up to London be in a West End show come back do the same again it's really really tough.
SPEAKER_01:That is tough yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So when I say I worked as an actor for two three years it was on and off working in factories working in construction sites working in resale And it just got to, well, the funny thing was, I used to get on quite well within these places, within the factories and within the offices, and everyone used to offer me full-time jobs.
SPEAKER_01:That's because you were probably so good at it, Chris.
SPEAKER_03:Which is really hard to turn down because you're so skint and so tired and you're seeing all your other mates getting jobs and doing really well following a formal career path. so it did get to a point where I was working in a tea and coffee factory and they offered me a full-time job and I was like I'm going to have to turn it down but I'm going to have to do something about where I go next so I started to think about you know if I could work in an office that sold arts or you know or the focus of the company was to focus creatively maybe that's a career path for me so I found an advert for Southeast Arts which is now the Arts Council but there the regional arts board and it was for an administrator. So I applied, I got the job. And funnily enough, there were three admin jobs going. And they said, well, we've put you in performing arts because obviously you're an actor. And I was like, no, I don't want that. I said, I feel like I'm a failed actor. I do not want to meet any other actors. Which actually was, I don't know, probably, I don't know whether it was a silly thing, but it's just generally how I felt at the time. So I said, okay, we've got two other positions. You can work in, you can be the admin officer for communications. And I was like, I don't really know what that means. And they said, we've got another department called visual media and i was like oh okay well that sounds that sounds interesting let's go for that so unwittingly i became the admin officer for about seven or eight officers and those officers were like really influential um just fantastic people such as stephanie fuller um yeah so steph who obviously is now the director of the ditchlin art museum um i was the administrator for jim shea i don't know if you remember jim shea who's an art consultant he was responsible for the Delaware Pavilion to turn into a sort of registered charity the Towner Art Gallery to move into the town centre which has just hosted the Turner Prize he was responsible for funding the Fabrica and the Turner Gallery in Margate so I was involved in all of those things there was a guy called Robert Martin Bob Martin I don't know if you know Bob
SPEAKER_05:Martin I remember Bob
SPEAKER_03:Martin yeah exactly so you know who's like a now art curator glass blower and sculptor Susie who was from literature there was a woman called Sarah who did education within galleries there was an art council that didn't really do film but they did avant-garde film and there was a mad guy called Tim who used to just support avant-garde film so what an education for me I was just like there as a sponge just kicking things up and it's not like now if you apply to the arts council you type an application in and it just goes off into the ether this was about artists coming into the office sitting down with a couple of bullet points seeing whether the Arts Council or the South East Arts Board could help them and we helped them support them within their application and within their career development and we had surgery sessions and I was just there setting these up I was sat in the room with all these guys and as the Arts Council started to or the South East Arts Board started to break down and make people redundant as they started to head towards the Arts Council which is now for the regional one was in Brighton I couldn't relocate to Brighton on an admin wage so people just left and I was kind of one of the last ones standing and I ended up doing surgery sessions with these artists just remembering what other people had said and trying to translate it and a few hops and skips later a job came up at Ashford Borough Council as art development and I thought that's right up my street and it's Kent which is where I was living so that's how I ended up in Ashford on this journey of 19 years, which I'd never have imagined. But yeah, it's been a great journey.
SPEAKER_01:Remember when it went to Brighton Arts Council? Because remember the pink carpet? And it was an amazing place. And Steph was there at the time. That's right. Yeah, that's right. And also, you know, you talk about your journey. I think as artists, as actors, you know, in the creative industries, we all have to do these jobs, don't we? I mean, I remember working in a Scotch eggs factory. It was horrible. I hated it. I was a vegetarian at the time but I needed the work and that's what you did when you were a student or when you'd left college or you know it was just trying to find your way wasn't it but I think you found your tribe didn't you in a way when you went to Southeast Arts really to find
SPEAKER_03:yeah in a way yeah and when I reflect upon it I don't want to sound like you know because I genuinely just didn't think I was good enough as an actor anyway but I just in that vein I did just didn't enjoy it and I feel I feel like because I've given so much time in terms of enjoying being performing arts and going to college and then going to drama school and the investment that goes into that. I felt like I just let everyone down. I felt like I had to keep following that. But I was so glad that that fork in the road of the South East Arts job came up because that really started to expand my mind in terms of creativity and working with some phenomenal artists.
SPEAKER_02:I don't think we quite realised you were a Dartfordonian at because you live on the South Coast now, don't you? That's
SPEAKER_04:right.
SPEAKER_02:But obviously we've done a project in Dartford and I know that you popped along to see Mick and Keith at One Bell Corner, but I didn't realise that you'd lived and you knew the area so well, actually. That's
SPEAKER_03:it, yeah. And I guess within Dartford, on the surface of things, there isn't that much creativity that you can see on the surface of things, especially back when I was living there. But as a creative, you try and find things within the nooks and crannies and you're always looking for the alternatives. And so you find people by meeting them. And that's how the Rolling Stones met. They met by being on the train station and seeing someone had a record collection under the ether arm, which was really quite exciting. And they got talking. And that's how I found Dartford myself, in the 80s and 90s, just crafting out some creativity where it wasn't formally offered. And if it was formally offered, I probably wouldn't have gone for it anyway. It just wouldn't have been my thing. But it is lovely walking through the town centre and seeing the statues there that have only been there probably, what, about a year now?
SPEAKER_02:Just over a year. Yeah,
SPEAKER_03:fantastic. Yeah, it's brilliant. They always make me smile.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's good. I think, you know, with the arts, as Laura said, you do end up tripping into different career paths, don't you? And we both went to art college and did visual arts and kind of tried it ourselves, much like you, a couple of years after we've come out. I was certainly doing commissions. Laura, you were working as a studio, trying to work as an artist. And there does come a point where you think, OK, I'm not sure this is quite working out. And you end up following a slightly different path, don't you? And for me, I ended up working in the Midway Towns at Gillingham Borough Council, as it was at the time, and found that I was actually better at organising artists than I was being an artist. So that's kind of where you end up. And I think, Laura, you found the same, didn't
SPEAKER_01:you? Yeah, I think you also find that you're still part of a creative process, aren't you? And we still get excited about meeting the artists, seeing the work that they're doing, getting involved in the things that are going on. You know that, Chris, because you very much do all of that. So I think being... still feel that you're part of it and maybe one day I might go and do an MA who knows do you know what I mean it's always there it's bubbling but I do feel that you know we're still all part of that and I think you met some very inspiring people when you were at South East Arts as well that were kind of on the cusp of doing some incredible things
SPEAKER_03:yeah and of course you never realised at the time but I definitely looked up to them the minute I walked in there it was like this feels like quite a big institution and the the language that they were using and the inspirational work that they were delivering. Yeah, I was there at a very, very lucky time, 100%.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So just talking about your work at Ashford, obviously it's pretty varied, Chris. We know you have a real interest in music, but we're particularly interested in the public realm projects because that's kind of what we do. And you sent us a couple of links to projects that you kind of feel exemplify what you do at the moment. And so we're picking up on them. The Snow Dogs art trail. This was, there's lots of firsts in this project for you. Could you just tell us a bit about the project and the legacy that is created for Ashford and kind of a turning point for commissioning public art, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it is interesting. And again, it just goes to show how long processes take. I always feel that I've got a shelf of projects in my brain, just ready to go, prime for Ashford. But working within the council you've got to bring them to the fore at the right time you've got to be very strategic and you've got to pick your winners so I remember waking up in Liverpool in 2008 the city of culture and overnight these super lamb bananas just turned up everywhere it was a half lamb half banana and there was about hundreds of them all across the city so me and my girlfriend which is now my wife were there and And we woke up and we had all the plans to do in Liverpool. But weirdly, we decided there's something going on here. Let's follow these bananas around. So that was 2008. And I just thought this would be fantastic for Ashford. And yeah, we delivered it in 2018. So 10 years later. But the conditions needed to be right for that project. And it needs a significant amount of external investment from sponsors. And at the time, 2016, 2017, there were around about five or six quite significant cranes in the sky around Ashford. And I didn't really think too much about it at the time. But obviously, there's five and six cranes in the middle of Ashford Town Centre. There's a huge amount going on. There's a huge amount of investment, lots of developers in the town and lots of money turning around. So it was a really good time to suggest a project and get lots of businesses to put their money forward for this first. And that's always the first concern, isn't it? Is anyone going to invest in something where they don't quite know what it is? I'm talking to them about some fiberglass dogs that are going to go around the town and they need to invest over£5,000 to be involved in it. So that was the first hurdle to get over. Secondly, it's about making sure that we had local, regional and national artists all working together and being involved within this project. which this project did achieve. And then thirdly, trying to get the public to love it, which we hadn't really had much precedence for, you know, in the past, the public loving, you know, a public art project. And then, so if you look at the end of the project and where we are now, you know, it had local, national and regional artists involved. It had huge public love and appreciation that the health and wellbeing stats of people touring around these and the distance that people came to Ashford to come and see the work which turned into an economic impact and the lasting legacy of these dogs and an artist, local artist saying to me thanks for this project I've become a professional artist and that's what I'm going to do and that's what I'm going to pursue it was a huge legacy of a project but yeah a lot of thirst and a lot of unknowns and I think we could probably do a whole podcast in terms of the unknowns of commissioning artists and the unknowns of a public art programme. And that's one thing that I have to sort of dance in between. And naturally, councils, and understandably, councils don't like to commission the unknown. Normally, it comes out of a problem or an issue that needs to be solved. And this is how we're going to do it. And this is how it's going to end up. Within the commissioning process of the art, there's a lot of unknowns. So therefore, I have to do a little bit of sort of translating in between the two, making sure that I talk to the artist about what the expectations are of the council, the broader sense of what we're trying to achieve here. And then when I'm talking back to the council, I'm trying to translate the project in the same way that they've... Normally when you're in council arenas, there's an agenda of around about 20 items, engineering issues, homelessness issues, housing issues. I'm somewhere on that list and I have to try and translate that project in the same way that the other projects have been discussed and that's how I kind of danced between the two so yeah the Snow Dogs was a great project and I think it helped raise my profile it helped raise Ashford's profile and it made people think that we could do something different although it wasn't different other major cities had done it but I think that was what was different for Ashford and for Kent we stood shoulder to shoulder with Newcastle Cardiff and Brighton who are all doing similar things. And it was a good time for Ashford to deliver that project and we delivered it well.
SPEAKER_02:And such a great opportunity for artists to get involved, to dip their toe into public realm work. First commission, working with a local authority, building a track record. As you say, when we go to commission artists, generally we are looking for artists with a track record so it's chicken and egg how does the artist even get the opportunity and get the track record build their body of work if they don't get the first foot on the ladder so
SPEAKER_03:that's right
SPEAKER_02:yeah yeah and there's some emerging
SPEAKER_03:artists and there was some quite emerging and established artists in Ashford that you had to gain their faith as well to kind of put an application in and there were there were some times where you know I was almost kind of putting their artwork together and and helping them through that process process and getting them to apply and almost forcing them to apply because we really wanted their artwork and I believed in the project even if they didn't quite at that at that time so yes it was yeah
SPEAKER_02:and building confidence as well isn't it for artists because they don't think perhaps that they you know, they do have the confidence to do that sort of work, but temporary projects are just brilliant for that. We find working with artists, emerging artists, temporary works just to dip their toe in is fantastic.
SPEAKER_03:That's
SPEAKER_02:right.
SPEAKER_03:And the artist had to be clever as well because it wasn't just me selecting the work. You know, the work was then put up on public exhibition and the businesses who had invested in this programme quite significantly, they were the ones selecting the artists. So they had to think very cleverly about what would look good in Ashford, what represents my work as best as possible and what would what would an investor select and the ones who worked that out did very well out of it.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's a really good basis for you know when you want when you start out as an artist as well that you need to have all those different things don't you need to be able to think about your audience or how you're going to get paid or how you're going to get your next piece of work. So what you're saying there, that small project in some ways helped those artists, as you say, think about all those things. And not in an obvious way either, so that they could obviously just get on with their work. But I think your role is very much like ours. We always say that we're a multitude of layers. We're a mediator. We're an instigator. We're sometimes a protagonist. And it sounds to me like in your role, you're there to do everything for us. really aren't you chris and so i mean obviously you you're not doing everything for the artist but you're there to support them aren't you and give them help
SPEAKER_03:yeah absolutely i kind of see my role as a bit like um putting a bit of primer on the skirting boards before the before the artists come in it's about laying those um it's about laying the the conditions uh for an artist to be able to work successfully and i think sometimes that translates a little bit differently in in in the real world and people kind of think oh you know you know working with artists you know you You're laying the conditions for the artist. What are you going to do? Just take out all the blue smarties. I've been on construction sites where construction teams and integrated design teams have called artists... There was one artist I was working with called Tim and they called him the artist formerly known as Tim because they could only think of an artist in the way that Prince had maybe egotistically had changed his name to a symbol or something like that. So it is challenging because when you're laying the ground conditions for an artist to work in there, you're laying the conditions for something that is not formulaic.
SPEAKER_04:when
SPEAKER_03:you're working on a construction site I'm not saying there's always challenges of course across all the disciplines but there does seem to be a formulaic approach of the ground conditions building upwards but with an artist each artist is different, each site is different and the way their work will weave through it might be that they need to be on site two years before the construction site or it might be they need to come right at the very end or normally somewhere in the middle and So laying the conditions is always different and that's why you end up being a multitude, you end up playing a multitude of roles. But that's also why the artists are always so clever because they've worked on so many different sites within so many different design teams, within so many different disciplines that actually they end up being the saviour to a project. You know, there's been so many times where I've sat in an integrated design team, engineers have been dilly-dallying about what to do about a situation and an artist has stepped up and bearing in mind I've worked on a ring road project in Ashford when it first came in. So sitting around with a lot of engineers worrying about what to do about a situation and then having an artist next to me called Diane Kulkarni going, well, why don't you do this? And everyone's like, who the hell is this guy? Sorry, who are you? Yeah, it's a really good point. What's this artist? Who are you? Yeah, exactly. So that's what I often find when I work with artists in that they might not be the most respected person and they often have to work two or three times harder to be on the level playing field at the start but at the end they always tend to be the solution and that's what I find really difficult and disappointed within the public art process is that you get that big win at the end and then you go to your next project and you feel like you have to start again that's a tough one
SPEAKER_01:It is a tough one. And we know, we hear what you're saying because we're living and breathing it. So we do know that. But, you know, it's worth it in the end though, isn't it, Chris? And you're right. There is, I don't know how you... how you changed, well, we do know how you could change that mindset, but it's very, it is, you take each project as it comes along, you're there to help the artist, protect the artist, make sure they're heard, make sure we're heard, you're heard. It's a really interesting situation. But I just want to go back to another one of your projects because I feel that this is kind of also very relevant. So Ashford Unframed, okay, that was a very ambitious project project wasn't it and you're talking about trying to put pieces of artwork on buildings in the middle of the town centre I mean some of them are in amazing places and locations getting businesses and people to understand what you're doing I mean they're not like small pieces are they I mean they're shouting out loud come and look at Ashford, come round, come and see the artworks, come and see what artists can do in your area. And it's changed the whole feel of the town centre, hasn't it? So that's, you know, again, you're having to, maybe not working with developers, but you're working with businesses and getting them, that's the same kind of conversation that we have to go through that you're just describing. That was very successful, that project. wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03:It was, yeah. It didn't start off as an ambitious project. There was a few things happened within the council. There was a bit of a restructure. I was very lucky to sort of be retained and move across into economic development. Economic development's not a bad place to be, being at the heart of the economic centre of things that are happening. And at the time, I had a festival and events framework, and I convinced everyone that we're going to do a great summer event, a great autumn event, a great winter event, And then we go into spring, which I hadn't quite worked out what that was. So when I landed within the Economic Development Department, they were working on a town centre reset strategy. And that reset strategy was all about how do we welcome people back into the town centre post-COVID? Things have naturally changed. Things have obviously stopped for a certain period of time. How do we get back our town centre and how do we use this as an opportunity? And within there, I mean, this is a real key part of my role because I say I'm not an artist. I am not an artist. I have a creative head, I guess, but I'm not an artist. You do have a
SPEAKER_04:creative
SPEAKER_03:head. I don't do any of the work. But what I found was that I'm very good at finding the hooks or writing the hooks in there. So when there's a corporate plan coming out, I make sure I'm there. When there's a local plan, I make sure that I'm there, that there's creative hooks all the way through it. And within this reset strategy that a consultant had put together, there was a hook there of we must... do something about some of our drab walls, which are very prominent within the town centre. And I'll remember the words and make use of the work of artisans, which I thought was a strange word, which was a bit flowery for me. But there was my hook and I was like, actually, if there's little money around, but a big ambition for a town centre reset, maybe that festival in the spring could be a mural festival. So I went to Leicester to have a look at Bring the Paint Festival, which was fantastic. My family didn't appreciate me taking them on holiday to Leicester. But we went to Leicester and we had a great time, actually. It was a fantastic mural festival there. I learned a lot there, got lots of names. But again, it was also the challenge of how do I get national and regional artists alongside, making sure our artists are there front and centre as well, because I don't want this to be a case of artists coming in from the outside and plopping whatever they want to do for Ashford it's about national artists understanding what Ashford's all about and giving opportunities for local artists to work on some of our walls but yes it was a challenge and I started off thinking let's pick our winners that small wall over there that's an easy one to grab what do we own Snow Dogs was a really interesting time actually because people started to know me from that event as well so I was going I'm behind the Snow Dogs thing I wanted this mural festival that got me through a few doors during Covid I was redeployed to manage some food bank funding and support that so there was some walls that were owned by some charities that I'd worked with so it was again hi I'm Chris I'm back I'm in the usual role again I want to try and deliver this so I don't think I would have been able to deliver the project in the way it was delivered if I'd have been new to Ashford and only one or years in. It's taken me a long time to build networks and relationships and so I felt very fortunate in that sense. But yes, patching artists with walls was a very interesting process to go through.
SPEAKER_02:And obviously one of the artists that was hugely successful in Snow Dogs came forward for the mural project as well. You had Mr Doodle, didn't you? Who's also an Ashford based artist? Yeah, he He
SPEAKER_03:lives within the borough, yeah, absolutely. So I've known him since his very early days. And so I've always kept in contact with him. We gave him a very small commission of painting the back of the skate park ramps and things like that. And we've worked with him on Create Festival and some of the build-ups to Create Festival. So I know him really well. He's a lovely guy and very generous with his time. So I was very lucky to secure him for the Snow Dogs again he was one of the ones that you had to drag kicking and screaming what's all this snow dog thing just do it just do it and of course that was very successful and his snow dog was auctioned off for the most amount of money
SPEAKER_01:yes that's amazing he got a lot of money for that didn't
SPEAKER_03:he a lot of money but whoever bought that has done very well because it's now worth probably four or five times what they paid for it and he's obviously been very very successful and very lucky to to get him on board the mural programme.
SPEAKER_02:Do you think that artists know to come and find you now, Chris, to share their work with you? Do you think, because, I mean, your title is Creative Industries Manager, is that right? Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, would artists know to seek you out, to introduce themselves to you?
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's a really good point, isn't it? Because when you go back to the very start of my career and trying to work as an actor, the thought of going to Dartford Borough Council and popping into the Civic Centre and imagining that there might be someone there who could help me. Exactly. absolutely no idea and maybe there wasn't I don't know but so I always keep that in mind which is why you know for free I always guest lecture at places like Canterbury Christchurch University, Ashford College, University of Kent you know I'm always you know out there as much as possible and trying to put trying to bring networks together trying to bring people together and through then people do tend to find me but there will be a huge amount of people living within the borough who have a creative focus who don't know that I exist.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah sure I mean you've previously spoken about some bugbears as part of the sector bringing artists on board and making them feel part of the team and being respected and I think we certainly feel your pain and and you know if we could just expand on that I think the one element and we spoke about it quite a lot recently haven't we Laura which is this artist being set up to fail and actually sometimes we feel like we're set up to fail as well it's a really tricky area with projects isn't it setting your stand saying this is how we would like to work this is how we would like to interact with you as a client and and then introducing the artist and hope you know that the artist will be respected for their profession as well as much as an architect is or the ecologist or the archaeologist so it's an interesting dilemma isn't it because it seems to happen time and time again we're not quite quite sure every time we do a project we kind of learn from it it's okay this time we'll kind of look at it this way we're always looking at the dynamics of personalities because it's kind of crucial how you communicate with teams and there's two of us so we can kind of um look at that and think okay who's best at this approach who might connect with that person a bit better and the artist sometimes just does it anyway and you can kind of introduce them to the team and and there we go we're right okay we're off on the right foot but sometimes that's not the case it's like how do we get around that how do we how do we protect that artist and the and the setup and you know, and how do we, how do we not set them up to fail? It's really, it's a really good question. The
SPEAKER_03:answer is to bring in the likes of you guys. But seriously, it's a really good point. And, you know, I was reading a book the other day and it was Brian Eno, the music producer, and he was saying, you know, what is producing? What is the role of being a producer? It's not written down anywhere. And he said, sometimes you have to, work with a band and completely rewrite their songs for them he goes but then sometimes you work with another band and all you have to do is make the tea and the biggest dilemma is what time to make the tea because sometimes it just clicks and it works and I feel very much like that when I'm working on projects like you because you're the expertise you're the one taking all the pressure you're the one doing all that and I turn up and just try and keep things alive and positive and happy and I'm a representative from the council and this all looks very good that's great but sometimes there are projects where I am dragging it, kicking and screaming from the very concept right the way through to the end. I think a lot of times I find that artists are very much in tune with the development and very much in tune with the people who are likely to live there or live in the surrounding areas. And that information struggles to be translated to the more technical team. Yet at the same time, the technical team have an absolutely huge broad range of knowledge and expertise and they know exactly what they're doing but that technical information doesn't seem necessary all the time to them to pass down to the artist and I think that's where you get a little bit of that void and I think that's why you make a living out of these particular roles it's about trying to dance between the two and work out what's working, what's not working, where the perceptions lie, where the challenges are and again trying to be that primer or all that translator and just laying the ground for an artist to work successfully throughout the scheme.
SPEAKER_02:yeah and they bring so much collateral to a project as well don't they you know and um you know if they can be part of the process fully integrated um they don't the artist then doesn't become a problem halfway through the project because they're asking for something slightly different a slightly different material choice or this to be done slightly different to give it a much better aesthetic or however it is that the artist wants to intervene and and then you know beyond the work actually well while it's being created we have a positive news story engaging with the community the community learning new skills potentially so there's a whole range of skills that an artist brings to that and they they do this connection this deep dive this connection and you can you know they are listening to the community fully and so then when the artwork is produced and and then we celebrate it a celebration is as much a part of the process as anything and that's a really positive news story as well but sometimes that can that can go slightly awry and that can become an issue if if the client or um the community aren't fully aware of what's going on and we've we've seen that and even working with projects on with you chris we've seen that happen we feel we have to then prep artists we protect arts we're protectors as well and certainly even with the Dartford project we spent some time talking to Amy Goodman who was the artist to say this may happen in the media that may happen in the media let's just think about how we might respond to that and it was the same with the Ashford project at Conningbrook Lakes and that's you know It's such a shame when the media takes such a negative stance on something when so much hard work has gone into a project, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it is. And I don't think you see that in any other trade, really. If, you know, if Ashford Borough Council was working on a project and we got a plasterer into plaster the walls, no one's asking, what do you think of this plaster work? And then splashing their personal names and details all over the local media and leaving forums open for people... kind of encouraging abuse this is this is someone's livelihood and this is someone's you know skills expertise and their mental health and I have in the past on the project that we've been discussing today I've gone into the local media centre and I've said I'm working on a public art project I'm working with an artist they have mental health problems if you talk about the project in the way that you've talked about some of the other projects something disastrous might happen and I really have had to drill that in, they still wasn't particularly kind but I feel like as a protector almost like a parent to the artist I felt like I had to do it but I always when you think about the project of Julia that we went through never did you think at the end of that that we would be front page of a copy that I have here which is the 2023 Kent property market report with a wonderful picture of the Julia's work on the front which is absolutely
SPEAKER_01:fantastic and not much property on that
SPEAKER_03:picture is there hardly any like right in the corner you can see a picture of a house but the rest of it is the artwork and that is because the artist has become the success and the solution and that's why it's always so different you take that as a big win for what you've had to go through during the project but that's what makes it very bittersweet at the end and then slightly a bit more disappointingly at the end when you get to the next project and you start again with similar issues
SPEAKER_01:yeah I suppose you're right because you kind of want that to be at the beginning don't you so they've got that in their heads that's the sort of end goal that we're going for but you're right it's as bittersweet
SPEAKER_02:I didn't actually realise we were on the front cover of that I must admit I'm glad you
SPEAKER_03:shared that I have it here to my right hand side for all meetings about the power of public
SPEAKER_01:art Chris is showing us a lovely picture of some work by Julia Clark down at conningbrook lakes um beautiful artwork so okay well let's let's look at the future then because the future should be brighter shouldn't it so let's go for that um i don't know if you had um remember but it is our 20th anniversary this year chris that's why we're doing these podcasts i have to keep hammering that home and we're always thinking about the future although i'm not sure of the next 20 years, Louise. No, maybe not next 20. So for you, Chris, what sort of project would you like to do on, an artist that you'd really like to work with? Because you say you talk about your shelf of projects, so there must be a couple
SPEAKER_03:of
SPEAKER_01:high shelves there with a few artists on it.
SPEAKER_03:There are, absolutely. And I think for me, it's a bit of a personal one because I arrive at Ashton International Station on a daily basis.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But most people at Ashford International Station, they come and go because they're used to the environment and I get used to it as well. But if you are someone from the outside and you're arriving at Ashford International for the first time, what you would hope to expect is maybe an international arrival point something that really says that this place has got something going for it and I have to admit whilst there have been some very nice attempts and there is a little mural out there there is a little bit of colouring in from local schools and groups and things like that and there has been a little bit of reordering of the station forecourt we are still stuck with very much network rail grey and very brutal architecture And wouldn't it be nice just to come out of Astrid International Station and just have something that just spoke of vibrancy and fun and innovation. I kind of, I love following the artist Morag Myerscough on socials because the work that she does in the public realm, you know, interior design, festival design and work out in the public realm. Oh, wouldn't it be great to just walk out and just see just Morag Myerscough just take it's very joyful work
SPEAKER_01:yeah absolutely
SPEAKER_03:but at the same time some artists find beauty in that network rail grey
SPEAKER_01:they do actually
SPEAKER_03:and there's artists like Alex Chinnock who just happens to live in the borough who I've been really inspired by working alongside I've been so lucky that he wanted to get on board some of my projects with a great leap of faith from his side of the coin I have to say but the way he subverts that everyday space and makes it into a joyful piece of public realm is fantastic the way he on our cinema right in the heart of the town centre he's put a mural of a huge unlacing of it like it's almost lacing up a boot and he's previously unzipped an old 1960s office
SPEAKER_05:block
SPEAKER_03:and I gave Ashford some such huge profile in all the national and international design magazines. So I would love to sit down with him and go, with a fair budget and a fair win, what can you do with this? Because he would come up with something that no one else could come up with. And that is the joy of my job in terms of sitting down with a coffee and talking to
SPEAKER_01:others. Oh, I love that bit. I love that bit, yeah. It's the best bit, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:And also you've built quite a bit of trust with Alex, haven't you? Because he did his first 2D piece of work He's known for his 3D work, but the painted piece for Ashford Unframed was painted by someone else on his design, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I guess a world first for Ashford and a world first for him as well. And yeah, it was one of those where we were sitting down in a coffee shop just kind of post-COVID, talking about the cost of steel, which especially British steel, they're very, very passionate about using local materials. and UK resources. And me talking about this random mural festival that I was hoping to get off the ground, not expecting him to say, I'm quite interested in that. And I think it was quite interesting for me and for him to see him go through a process that was new to him, to put a lot of faith in Ashford Borough Council and in me and in our other artists, the London Mural Company, who supported us to deliver the programme. And for him to... and you will know this when you work with artists you're expecting to work with them for a year or two and then suddenly four or five years down the line you still haven't delivered the project but you're still on board for him to start a project and to finish it within six months was an absolute joy for him and he quite liked the idea of the speed of production but what was equally nice was he was very good to us and gave us a lot of his own studio time, to see the 3D work of that realised across France in an area called Nancy, where he's got these beautiful 3D sculptural laces. They are absolutely, absolutely stunning. And it does make me think, you know, Ashford is quite a good testing bed. It's quite a good production house for creating something in Ashford and taking it out, very much like, you know, separate discipline, but Jep and Vardaman Dance Company They create the world-class work here. They show it in Ashford first, and then they take it out around the world. And it's still got our logo on there somewhere and still talks about their home in Ashford. So it's a great thought to think that whilst Ashford doesn't have the all singing, all dancing theatre space or gallery space, it still can be a really interesting production house where artists' careers can grow and develop.
SPEAKER_01:But I think the thing about Ashford is it has Chris Dixon there, which really is part of the advocacy.
SPEAKER_03:There's two Chris Dixons. One is a really good tattoo artist. And one is very good at pushing pens and paper around a council office. More than just
SPEAKER_04:good.
SPEAKER_03:And sometimes people go in for a tattoo and moan at him about the potholes. And sometimes people come to me and ask me whether they could do a really great tattoo. I'm sure there'll be one day there'll be a calamitous mix up.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, brilliant. Well, we've got one final question for you, Chris. And we ask all our guests, which is, can you tell us at least one little known fact about yourself that we might not have already guessed?
SPEAKER_03:Well, you know, I've been reflected upon this and it was the hardest. I knew you were going to ask me this and I didn't quite know how to. I even asked my kids and they said, oh, you get really angry quickly. I can't say that, but I just have. But I do love football and it's quite interesting how sometimes the art world and football doesn't quite mix, even though there are creative midfielders and there's a huge crowd of people all singing harmoniously together. And some of the grounds and some of the football grounds that I go to, you know, they've been there since like 1880 and they've got such a huge history of success and failure and all these different bits and pieces. So it always strikes me that football grounds and football spaces tend to be very void of the visual arts when there's lots of other things at play. But it did actually remind me of my childhood as well because I do like to draw and but I've never done any sort of formal training but I remember as a kid I used to design football stadiums I used to just sit there and draw them out and just and think about and put in put in little sculptures not even thinking that I might even work in the world of you know integrating artists into development but maybe maybe that was a good starting point for me but yeah I do I do think wouldn't it be great if we could have more yeah a more pragmatic a Scots football stadium or something like that. Something that really helps bring the architecture but also the great history of these clubs and grounds to the fore a little bit more. On top of the standard sculptures of a path manager which of course are all very valid as well. Wouldn't it be nice to have something integrated a little bit more integrated into the design of these things?
SPEAKER_02:In fact we did a project with a local football club where we worked with the local library introducing literacy it was about men and boys actually because just trying to get the literacy levels up we worked with a photographer and a writer and a performance company so we worked with Mal Glover Steve Tuzane was the writer Accidental Collective and a documentary photographer Ed Thompson and it was a lovely project and the fans really responded well it was quite a lot of engagement it was temporary the outcome was a book which was rather beautiful but we did struggle a little we did struggle with the management I would say and it was a long project it was very well supported we had arts council funding and And we had an exhibition and the exhibition brought people into the library because there was all this memorabilia that people shared as well. So it was a really nice collective project in that sense. But definitely, we had it quite hard from the management. They just didn't get us. They didn't get the artists. We just couldn't get through. But we have done that. But we haven't kind of ventured into any public art necessarily. But you did share with us a long time ago when we came to see you, the Neville Gabby. Yeah. in the football stadium well not in the football stadium it was to replace the home of Middlesbrough FC and it was small sculptures around a new development site and it kind of included sandblasted text onto brick walls a football boot a football the posts of a goal and it was a rather beautiful project and in fact it did inspire us because it was quite a challenge a bit like the management at the football club getting to engage developers and commissioning artists and i'm going back a few years now it was really difficult but if we shared that project they got it you know we we had the right language we had it was it was the oddest thing but we had the right language to engage people and they just and it just clicked and it was the magic that an artist can bring
SPEAKER_03:yeah i was really inspired by that i think it's called the trophy room and uh uh it's uh and the booklet that came with it i was really inspired by the work i've always wanted to work with never I've never had the opportunity but a funny story there was a master planning opportunity that came up and I thought this would be perfect for someone like Neville so I found his email address and emailed him and I got the best out of office response ever and he said unfortunately I'm away for a year working with NASA in Antarctica I thought well I don't think I can wait that long but I just thought that sums up you know the role of the artist you know in terms of you never quite know where your career might be might go and no matter where you've trained you just would never expect that you might be working with NASA in Antarctica and I don't know what that project eventually was but it was just the best out of office I've ever seen
SPEAKER_01:that's brilliant well thank you so much Chris for chatting to us it's been incredible you're such an advocate for the arts your energy is amazing the way that you support your artists you know you should be really proud of the work that you do in Ashford and you need a trophy you need a trophy in your little room there um we want to say thank you so much and we've really enjoyed talking to you thank you
SPEAKER_03:chris thank you very much
SPEAKER_00:Engaged, creative, curious, courageous and valued, Francis Knight is an award-winning independent public art consultancy based in southeast England with over 20 years experience offering expert advice and management in commissioning high quality public art for the public realm. As co-founders and directors of the business, Louise Francis and Laura Knight commission professional artists from across the UK to create ambitious public realm artworks in a variety of locations. The consultancy Constancy partners closely with housing developers, design teams, social housing associations and local authorities, together with a wide range of community groups, to create brave, ambitious, thought-provoking art for public spaces.
SPEAKER_01:Next week, we talk to Jo Verrent, Director of Unlimited, on supporting disabled artists, on getting too big for your boots and rubbish off-the-shelf policies.
SPEAKER_02:And on Grantium, the dreaded Arts Council application portal, plus being bloody-minded, life-work balance and reducing exploitation in the cultural sector.
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